IndustryGamers: So let's talk about your new IP, Dragon Age. This is in some ways a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate?
Ray Muzyka: You could look at it that way and maybe taken to the next level with this next generation. If you think about the feature set we had in Baldur's Gate II and imagine that married with the cinematic scope and characterization and the way the emotional engagement works with the characters and worlds in Mass Effect... put those together and it's kind of what you get in Dragon Age. But we're defining a new kind of fantasy is how we're looking at it too – dark heroic fantasy. It's not the high fantasy of Tolkien or the low, dark stuff either. It's more in the middle where you're a hero still but you're a dark hero in a dark world where choices have consequences, and it's mature and gritty and realistic. So it's something pretty differentiated from the other fantasy you've seen to date, we think, and we're pretty excited about it.
IG: Yeah, I read about how you guys deliberately changed the perception around elves, so instead of being this lofty race, they'd been enslaved by humans and there's a real hatred there between the races.
Greg Zeschuk: Right, and you feel that. What's interesting about that is from the Origins story – when you first start the game you play as an elf – and you discover first-hand how you're getting disrespected... You feel that and you're launched right into the world after that experience and through the rest of the game you then have that perspective of what it's like to be an elf. But it's very customized for everyone – you choose which one of the Origins stories you want to take and all have interesting challenges, and then throughout the rest of the game you're always seeing through those eyes. The concept of role-playing is further strengthened by that.
IG: Aside from Tolkien, who's of course inspired everyone in this genre, what were some of the primary inspirations for you on this project?
Muzyka: Some of the work of George R.R. Martin is probably on the other end of the spectrum; it's dark and very mature. A character dies every few pages and it feels like a world where it's very different from the high fantasy, and yet it's still a fantasy world. Dragon Age is somewhere right in the middle – there are heroes, you are saving the world and you still have a legendary quest to complete, but it's not an easy place. It's a pretty dark unpleasant place in some ways, but to explore it still feels heroic and like you're on a grand adventure. And yet, there are mature consequences to your actions.
IG: Right, whether with Mass Effect or Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, you guys have been designing games that show consequences for some time, and there have been more and more games that incorporate this like Fable, BioShock and others. Do you feel that game designers perhaps have a moral responsibility to create games that do show the consequences of your actions?
Zeschuk: It's interesting that you mention that. I'm not sure how much you follow the ratings board in Germany and the challenges there – because they are very strict on violence in video games – but one of the things in Germany is if you actually show a consequence for a bad behavior it's more acceptable for consumption because it does have that underlying message for players. I think it depends on what you're building though. If you're creating a total bubble gum game where you're blowing things up like in Serious Sam, then there are no consequences, but I think when we're trying to create a more engaging experience where you want to play a role and have some kind of realistic relationships, both with the characters and the world, then [consequence] is a good thing to have because it rounds out the experience. ... It's exciting from a designer's perspective because we can always try new things. In Dragon Age for example we have this approval system with your party members where they each individually comment on and evaluate what you're doing. Effectively, they're always watching you and either happy or unhappy with your actions. On the happy side, it can lead to romances or they'll share tricks or techniques or tell you where treasure is; and on the unhappy side they can even attack you or leave your group. So it's an interesting way to do it – I think the designers like to have that challenge of figuring out how to measure these things.
Muzyka: For us, the engagement of the emotional part of the experience may not be feasible without having consequences for the choices you make, because those lead to an emotional engagement or reaction. That's a core part of our vision and our game design as a studio. Not all developers embrace that, but we think it leads to a more powerful experience with our audience.
IG: Tying into that, there's been that talk for a while about "Can a video game make you cry?"
Zeschuk: Sometimes they make us cry... [laughs]
IG: But do you think they've gotten to that point now where they are emotionally engaging enough to affect players in that way?
Muzyka: I think so. The industry continues to mature and it's more in the middle of the maturity phase now. I see games as an art form and they're starting to evolve to that [emotional level]. Like movies, literature or television there's a whole spectrum of different kinds of games, and some of them are trying to do that and some aren't – some are just more action-oriented. But even those can still have a powerful story and moving characters and an emotionally powerful narrative that make you feel like you're immersed in a world you don't want to leave. That's what we're striving for.
IG: I recently had a brief chat with one of your Mass Effect designers who was saying, "You can blame me for the long elevator sequences," and so I was nitpicking about some of the other problems like the game's horrible item management and repetitive textures and layouts. I loved the game, but those were just a few things that bothered me. I'm assuming you're working to correct all that for Mass Effect 2?
Muzyka: Yes, those and many more. We've got a sharply circumscribed list of things we're working on; some are technical like you were talking about and some relate to the action and intensity. We really want to make the game feel like it's a shooter-RPG – we're amping up the moment-to-moment gameplay but also enhancing the RPG elements, so it's both things simultaneously. We're also really tying in the exploration and uncharted worlds; the optionality of the stuff will still be there but it's going to be a lot more integrated with the main experience and enhance it. And with the personal moments, the moment-to-moment conversation, we're going to do things to really allow you to grab control. So those are some issues we're working on beyond the technical side. We want to continue to evolve and innovate in the gameplay itself.
IG: Couldn't the loading issue with the elevators in the game have been avoided if Microsoft had put a hard drive in every 360?
Zeschuk: I think in many ways the hard drive issue is a bigger one with regards to downloadable content. We're really entering a phase here in the industry – and Dragon Age: Origins is a great example – where there's very extensive downloadable content planned. To take best advantage of that you've got to have the space to put it in. Even the size of the Xbox Live downloads and demo downloads have gotten big... it's just becoming more and more digital. So one side is game performance – yeah, it'd be better with a hard drive – but the other side is that as we attempt to create platforms, and that in many ways is what Dragon Age is, we need the space to put extra content in. Not only will there be downloadable content we sell, but we're going to provide user tools, and so players will be able to create content and we're going to see if we can bring it over to console. All these things create a platform and a platform's got to have a landing pad for content. Without a hard drive I guess you could try memory cards. [laughs]
Muzyka: We're planning some very extensive post-release DLC in addition to the stuff the fans will make. We want to make it all searchable by the fans, at least on the PC side, but we'd love to do it on consoles too, if there's a way to integrate that.
IG: BioWare has always excelled at telling stories in its games. Speaking of DLC, have you thought about perhaps creating shorter form, episodic content to tell stories in smaller chunks?
Muzyka: We have, yeah.
Zeschuk: We're starting to see some more of that out there with things like Sam and Max. It's exciting to see; it's probably one of the many evolutions the game industry will go in.
Muzyka: It's almost an alternate way to serve up content with a different business model. There are so many ways you can deliver great games and story or narrative, broader than with just story alone. It's an exciting opportunity in the future.
Zeschuk: Send it down the wire OnLive...
IG: That would be interesting if OnLive takes off... So switching topics, let's talk about Nintendo. I think everyone would like to see BioWare do something on the Wii, but can the typical epic story-based BioWare game fit the Wii? Would the Wii audience embrace it?
Muzyka: I think the question we'd ask is, "What is the Wii audience looking for, and what would we want to deliver that has emotionally powerful narrative?" And that probably wouldn't be exactly the same as everything else we do; we did a DS game and that was already very different from what we've done before, and the PC-only SKUs we did years ago were very different than the ones we've done for console... They're all different from one another. If we did a Wii game I think we'd approach it with the target audience in mind first and the vision of delivering an emotionally powerful narrative and go back to our basics in terms of some of the pillars of gameplay we'd like to bring to bear – exploration, progression, customization, conflict, story, narrative, and characters. How do we adapt that to the platform? That's how we'd approach it. The interface design on the Wii is very different from the other platforms, and that's really an opportunity because you can actually tell different kinds of stories and convey a different type of narrative. In the end the players are all human regardless of platform and they all want to feel something powerful and engaging. As a developer, you just need to really adapt and customize depending on the platform.
IG: So is it safe to assume that in the not too distant future we will finally see a Wii game from BioWare?
Muzyka: We'd be intrigued by the idea of developing on Wii but we have nothing to announce right now. We do have some unannounced projects that we're not ready to talk about yet, and they are different from some things we've done in the past... Our goal, really long-term, is to broaden our base and continue to differentiate and have diversity of choice on different platforms, because we know there are different audiences on platforms like mobile and Wii, and different geographic markets and distribution and business models. It's exciting, but you can't do all things at one time.
IG: In a sense, you were able to test out the Nintendo audience already with your Sonic RPG title. Are you pleased with the reception you got?
Zeschuk: We're really happy with what we made. The main thing is that it was the first time on the [DS] platform and the team did an awesome job. It was a lot of fun to develop. Watching everyone in the office, it was amazing to see how fast stuff changed and how quickly we were able to do it. Typically our projects are very big and take a lot of time. Even for the platform, Sonic was kind of a big game, but on the BioWare scale it was small and fast.
IG: So what do you feel is the next step needed to advance storytelling in games?
Zeschuk: I wish we knew. [laughs] It's a continuous evolution. It's hard to describe but I feel like we're always looking at new stuff. Some of it is just the quality of the acting, and how much non-verbal stuff you can do [with animation].Secondarily, we talk about narrative living in different spaces, not necessarily just the story in the game, but also the action – what's the story of the battle you just had? So I think [storytelling] is expanding and with Dragon Age: Origins we're trying to pull that personal experience you have and surface it onto the community sites so people can share each other's journeys – it's like the Facebook of role-playing. ... It's about getting people connected. That's one of the exciting things about where we are right now; more and more we're living in this highly connected world, so every game you make has to consider that. That's the big thing, that concept of narrative among different people and how they share it.
Muzyka: The social narrative outside of gaming is exciting because it affords you having a longer term connection with your fans, whether that be sharing what they're doing with one another, multiplayer, downloadable content that you can sell to them, or getting them engaged in being co-creators of the experience with toolsets.
IG: One thing that might hold some gamers back from connecting emotionally with characters in a game is the uncanny valley, which designers continue to talk about trying to overcome. What are your thoughts?
Zeschuk: Our thoughts are that it's challenging to cross it. [laughs]
Muzyka: And it's important to cross it. It's a multifactorial solution, so it's not just one thing you have to do. You have to do all things at all times – animation, production, AI, integration with the world...
Zeschuk: They don't just have to talk sensibly but have to act sensibly, as you get this higher and higher level of fidelity [in games]. It really ups the ante. You can't just have guys standing there [like mannequins].
Muzyka: The more complex the game, and the more complex the characters are, then the more complex the solution needs to be. With a game like Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2 surpassing that uncanny valley becomes more challenging because of all the things you get to do in the game – RPGs are very diverse in the experience...
IG: I've heard some in the industry say that designers will never be able to truly cross that uncanny valley. Do you think it's something you can cross?
Zeschuk: I think we have at times. There are moments in Mass Effect and Dragon Age where it looks so incredibly lifelike that it's almost spooky. It's not every single scene, but there are points where it's starting to happen, so it's really about finding out what happened in those instances and reproducing that.
Muzyka: One of the neat things we're doing [in Dragon Age] is just the interactions with characters as you walk around and there are these optional moments depending on who you have with you [in your party]. There are times where you're walking around and the characters are commenting on the environment or talking amongst themselves... talking about their interests, likes, desires, and that just gives them so much depth and makes them more realistic and credible characters. You're just listening to it and enjoying it – they're not just responding to your actions or the big stuff in the world but they're doing the small things. That's the way people relate to one another as well.
IG: Ray and Greg, thanks.
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